Part II. January 31, 1979

PART II - January 31, 1979

[Interview conducted by Royal Jackson and Jennifer Lee at Peavy Hall, Oregon State University.]

Royal Jackson: Tell us about when you first came to Oregon State University and what you remember from that period.

Marvin Rowley: Okay. I came to Oregon State in 1946, fall of 1946. Of course, that was the year all the veterans hit the campus, and there was a large influx of students. I guess a more mature student than the normal college student—the average age was more like 22 or 23, rather than 18 or 19 starting. I think this group of veterans had quite an influence on the campus. Of course, the School of Forestry at that time was, it seems like maybe 400, 350 students. The returning veterans were the bulk of the students.

Royal Jackson: Why did so many veterans enter the School of Forestry? Was that unusual?

Marvin Rowley: Well, they entered all the schools, but, of course, the GI Bill of World War II was the main reason most of them could come all at once. It enabled us to pick up an education, where, like I say, immediately before the Second World War the money was hard to come by and students working their way through college would probably take five, six, seven years to get through. And with the GI Bill, they paid tuition, paid a monthly amount for the time we were in school.

Royal Jackson: What were the reasons why you chose OSU and the School of Forestry?

Marvin Rowley: The reason I chose Oregon State University was family. My uncle, my mother’s brother, had graduated from Oregon State School of Forestry, and I guess he was probably my hero up to the time I went into the service anyway. That’s all I had in mind was, when I went to school, if I went to college, I was going to Oregon State and I was going to take forestry. And, like I say, the School then had just three departments, Forest Management, Forest Engineering, and Forest Products in a smaller building—quite a different set of curriculum than we have now.

Royal Jackson: Who was Dean then? Was that Paul Dunn?

Marvin Rowley: Paul Dunn was Dean, yes. I think he had taken over during the war years from [Earl] Mason. Dean Dunn was in a rebuilding cycle. I think the School had lost its accreditation for a couple of years right there at the start of the Second World War.

Royal Jackson: Accreditation with what?

Marvin Rowley: With the SAF, the Society of American Foresters.

Royal Jackson: Why was that?

Marvin Rowley: I’m not sure whether it was due to facilities or faculty, I’m not up on that. I know they lost accreditation, or at least it was in question, and Paul Dunn was the one who put it back together and started building a strong program again.

Royal Jackson: How did he do that? What things did he do?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think the main thing he did.... He had contacts. He brought some good, strong personnel in, talked them into coming to the University and teaching when financially it was a real setback to work for the University. I think, during my own time, Harry Patterson was the head

Marvin Rowley: of the Forest Engineering Department. I think maybe I mentioned that last time, but I had forestry in mind, and I’d also thought of working with the Forest Service, but after three years in the Army, and then coming onto the campus and talking to other students who worked for the Forest Service, what they did and how they did it, I thought, “That sounds like the Army, and I don’t want that.” I was fed up with military, and so I switched to Forest Engineering, because that looked like that was private industry, and I could make my own way.

Royal Jackson: What were these returning vets like, what kind of students were they?

Marvin Rowley: Well, they were good students, although there were a lot of students that showed up at that time that weren’t college-caliber. Because they had the GI Bill, they thought it was their doorway to education. Like I say, I know that a lot of them, in the first few months, had dropped out; we didn’t have the counseling services that are available now. They would’ve been better off in a vocational educational system, or maybe an apprenticeship right on a job would have been better for them.

Royal Jackson: What percentage of them actually finished? Do you have any idea?

Marvin Rowley: No, I don’t. But, of those, after the first year, I think a high percentage of them finished. I don’t know of any, or remember any, of my near friends that dropped out after the first year.

Royal Jackson: Were there a lot of good jobs waiting for graduates of this program?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes.

Royal Jackson: Were people optimistic about that?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, of course—in Forest Engineering, I don’t remember Management. I think during that time most of the Management students and all the Forest Products students found jobs, and, of course, in Forest Engineering there was more than one job available for every graduate.

Royal Jackson: How many students were in Forest Engineering?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, in my class there were about 20.

Royal Jackson: Twenty?

Marvin Rowley: And, like I say, when I graduated, I’d been building a house during my school days, and I just had little odds and ends to finish up on it before I could sell it, so I didn’t take a job; I didn’t even look for a job. I figured the month of June I would finish my house, and before the first week of June I had two job opportunities where they wanted somebody immediately.

Royal Jackson: When was this, about 1950?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, in 1950. And I took one of those and sold the house unfinished.

Royal Jackson: What job did you take?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, one with Umpqua Plywood Corporation in southern Oregon.

Royal Jackson: Let’s back up a minute. I want to dwell a little bit more on the University before we skip over that. Who was president of the University when you came?

Marvin Rowley: Well, Dean [George] Peavy was president.

Royal Jackson: And also Dean at the same time?

Marvin Rowley: No, he had been. I think he moved into the presidency in 1939 or 1940. And he retired in 1946, I think, so he was retiring about that time.

Royal Jackson: What kind of man was he? What do you recollect of him?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, he was a…. I’d say he wasn’t too tall a person or anything. He was short for a man, probably 5’6” or something like that, 5’7”. But he had a voice on him when he spoke that commanded attention.

Royal Jackson: He was authoritative?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, well, he was just..., you listened. He spoke at a couple of our Fernhopper Banquets, and I met him a few times during my college days, and, like I say, he always knew he was a man, he knew what he wanted done, he knew how to get it done, and people were willing to follow him.

Royal Jackson: He was a good leader?

Marvin Rowley: He was a good leader, an excellent leader. I think that’s why he built the Forestry School. In those days, you could feel his character in it. A lot of the professors came up under him. [Walter] McCulloch was the head of the Forest Management Department, and his character was similar to Peavy’s—rather strong.

Royal Jackson: Very moral men?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, they were. And rather rigid sometimes, to the point of cutting people off. I don’t know about Dean Peavy, but I know McCulloch. I knew of some incidents where people left forestry rather than stay around because they did something he didn’t approve of, and he let them know in terms that didn’t leave any alternatives.

Royal Jackson: Why don’t you go ahead and talk about McCulloch a little bit. What kind of man was he?

Marvin Rowley: I think he was born in Canada, British Columbia, Vancouver Island. Studied at UBC, then came down to the States and furthered his education. He was a strong leader. I don’t think he was as strong as Dean Peavy. Real good educator.

Royal Jackson: He was a good storyteller then?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. I wasn’t sure whether that story was fact or fiction, but I think it was fact. I think he, like you hear people tell stories, and they get mixed up about times.... Since I’ve got that age, I can get events mixed up, too. But he was a good storyteller, and he got his point across. Like he wrote this Woods Words.

Royal Jackson: The book called Woods Words?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, the book. Terminology of words used in forestry and in the woods. And another book he wrote then had to do with, oh, getting along on the job; I can’t remember the name.

Royal Jackson: It’s put out by the Extension Service, as I recall.

Marvin Rowley: Yes. And it is pretty well done.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, how did he feel about women in forestry?

Marvin Rowley: I don’t know. We didn’t have any women in forestry then. They had a woman who graduated in forestry back in the late 1930s, who, from what I’ve heard, did a good job, and went out and worked in the industry.

Royal Jackson: Isn’t she the one that married another forester?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I think so. I don’t know their names. I just remember hearing about it. Then I think, during our years, I don’t remember one girl in forestry.

Royal Jackson: Why do you think that is?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think it was traditional for one thing. I don’t think, back in those days…. I don’t think women thought of it as being a field that they could work in even. And so they just didn’t. And the only ones who did were considered tomboys—probably they still are?

Royal Jackson: What else do you remember about McCulloch? Was he a good administrator?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, like I say, a good administrator. I think, some of the things that refer to the forest, I mean in the background.... I know about the forest at that time. Harry Nettleton was the forest manager. I think he was appointed forest manager about 1948 or something like that, and his background had been with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and some public agencies, mainly in a protective role. As he came on as forest manager, he looked at the forest as being unroaded, and needed a lot of money spent on it, and those days the budget was tight, and they didn’t have money to spend, and I can just remember something about Dean McCulloch telling Nettleton that he couldn’t spend that money. So, he was looking at things pretty closely. Of course, they had to then, too.

Royal Jackson: How would the years be structured for the forest managers the School has had then? Was Harry Nettleton the first one?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, Harry Nettleton was the first forest manager. Full-time.

Royal Jackson: What would have been his years as full-time manager?

Marvin Rowley: I think from 1948 to 1958. I think Bill Davies took over as a part-time manager in 1959 until 1973.

Royal Jackson: Was Davies department head at that time?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, he was department head of the Forest Engineering Department.

Royal Jackson: Why did they stop having a full-time manager and go to a part-time individual like Bill Davies, who had other responsibilities as well?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think you’d have to ask McCulloch that. I’m not sure, but I have a feeling that this probably had something to do with my being on the scene. In this contract we negotiated, that they felt like, as contractors, we could do part of that work rather than need a full-time manager. The contractor could be doing some of that.

Royal Jackson: I’ve been told you were really managing the forest even before you worked for the School of Forestry, because of all the work you were doing as an independent contractor.

Marvin Rowley: Yes, we did most. Like I say, what Bill Davies did was set policy and guidelines, and pick areas to work in. And, as we worked through an area, I’d look at the area, come in and communicate with him what I’d seen and what I felt ought to be done, and we’d agree on what to do, and I’d go back and do it. But I’d usually do that.... Under a continuous contract, we’d start in one area and move across. I used to look out ahead, and try to be a year ahead if I could on potential things that should be done. So we had a good working relationship that way.

Royal Jackson: Did Harry Nettleton not take a very active role in managing the forest? What was his philosophy?

Marvin Rowley: No, he wasn’t very active. But, like I say, I think we see a transition between no management, just anybody going out and doing their own thing on the forest, and then trying to

Marvin Rowley: bring it into a managed state. Under Harry Nettleton, they sold at least three fairly large timber sales. The philosophy of management that came from what they did with the government agencies and put up timber sale type of thing, drew up a contract, put it up for bid, and this got them about the same results as you get on a government timber sale. The sale made, with a contract and whoever logged it, was picked up by the purchaser, and the work was done within the scope of the contract. But they had leeway, and the manager wasn’t able to dictate a whole lot under it. It wasn’t drawn up any closer than the contracts were at that time. And, if you go back in the early 1950s, you know, in the Forest Service, there was no engineering on a road. The engineering that was done..., you took an abney and ran a grade. You blazed the centerline, and then the timber cutters came through and fell right-of-way. All they had was a blazed centerline. That was it. They just told you in the contract to fall right-of-way about so wide, and there were no ribbons on each side or anything.

Royal Jackson: No real road construction, then?

Marvin Rowley: Well, there was road construction, but it was done by the catskinner and the road construction foreman, and it just came down to—how competent was he? And there were some excellent roads built during that time, but there were some lousy ones, too. And the government agency didn’t have any control on it. Well, that’s the same thing on the forests there in those earlier days. And, as they got into the management, then they saw other things they needed to do. Especially the university forest that was going to be experimental wanted more flexibility. I guess maybe we get away from the school a little bit now, and go to the forest.

Royal Jackson: Yes. Well, let me ask you a couple of other things. First of all, I’m confused. I thought that in 1950 you took a job with a plywood firm, and now you’re talking about managing the forest. What happened in between?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. Well, I worked four years down there for Umpqua Plywood, and then I quit and went to work as a logging contractor with tree-farm thinning as our specialty.

Royal Jackson: Where, in this area?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, back up in this area. We started that in 1954, and in 1956 we started doing some work for the University. Do you have more to get before that?

Royal Jackson: Yes, I was wondering who effectively managed the forest before Harry Nettleton. Who started in 1948? They started acquiring it, as I recall, in the middle ‘20s from Mary McDonald.

Marvin Rowley: Yes, they started buying this about 1924, ‘25. I think they built the first Forestry Club Cabin in 1925, so that probably was purchased before then. They started with the Arboretum area…, and they gradually purchased all of McDonald Forest. And the philosophy behind the purchasing was that they wanted a school forest. The money was there, but they didn’t want to go right out and buy one, so the people decided that, yes, they’re going to buy it, and hold them up for money, so it was going to cost them. They bought it as it was available and at a market price, rather than an inflated price.

Royal Jackson: Who did this?

Marvin Rowley: Dean Peavy, and T. J. Starker was one of the professors who helped purchase the earlier lands. But most of it was Dean Peavy and the different…, I’m not sure which professors then were given the authority to go ahead, but I think they worked as a committee. I think they had a McDonald Forest Committee that said, “Yes, buy this. Don’t buy that.”

Royal Jackson: In retrospect, they were very wise in the way they handled that, weren’t they?

Marvin Rowley: I think they did a good job of it.

Royal Jackson: Bought it at good market prices, and did it slowly enough that no one was able to extract a huge price out of the University.

Marvin Rowley: Yes, they did it, as I say—as it became available. Actually, they called it junk land when I was here. Like I said, back when I came onto the scene in 1946, the professors were inclined to call this, McDonald Forest, the land that nobody else wanted, and it’s just junk, you know? A lot of it was cut over and then sold to them. And, in my earliest recollection of riding or going out there, we had the open Army trucks with canvas backs on them that we used to go to class in.

Royal Jackson: What year would that have been?

Marvin Rowley: 1946–’50.

Royal Jackson: It was bought specifically for the classes and the School of Forestry?

Marvin Rowley: It was bought specifically for a university forest. And that was for research and education purposes.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, do you know where classes were taken before they acquired this land?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. Avery’s Park, Avery’s Woodlot. They used to go to Marys Peak. Sometimes they’d take the train, I think. They’d go on field trips up to Columbia County. They’d go up to logging camps and stay a week or two, around Oregon. I know I’ve read different incidents about them going on these “excursions,” they called them, either in an old truck or on a train. Ride up and take the logging train, catch it into camp.

Royal Jackson: Did Peavy go with the students? And professors?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. I think all of them went. Only, I think, when they left campus back in some of the early days, they left en masse. They just vacated the Forestry School for a week and everybody left.

Royal Jackson: Did students look forward to that, from what you’ve heard? Did they like that experience?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. I think that was vital to them, at those times. It took the place of some of the things that we can now do right here on the forest. In those days, if they didn’t do that, they had all book-learning, and nothing on the ground.

Royal Jackson: So, the education in that period was very applied?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, very applied.

Royal Jackson: Go out and do it?

Marvin Rowley: If you couldn’t do it.... And that’s one of the reasons that Oregon State University built up such a credibility with the industries, because the industries knew that a forester, when he got out of here, would be able to do the job for them. And you’d see some of those earlier foresters took leadership in the forest industry, and the world even, as they went from here.

Royal Jackson: Are there some of your classmates that have made names for themselves in the field of forestry or a related field?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. Fellows I studied with. Of course, Rex Ressler’s one. He was a freshman when I was a senior, but we worked on the cabin together, and he was number two in the Forest Service until he retired this year. A lot of my friends have been supervisors in the national forests. Frank Price. Dick Worthington is Region Six, head of Region Six now. He was a classmate. Frank Price is head of the national forest in Alaska. Those before that time even were real strong

Marvin Rowley: people. One of the memorable ones I guess is Bob Aufderheide. You have the Aufderheide Award around the School. He died of leukemia.

Royal Jackson: What did he do that was notable?

Marvin Rowley: In the late ‘50s he was the, the head of the Umpqua National Forest, and then the Willamette National Forest when he got sick. He was just a good, strong personality, and a likable fellow. An incident about him, you know, when I was working at Umpqua Plywood, an engineering crew took care of the slash burning pretty much. When we were slash burning, Bob Aufderheide would always show up, not sometimes, but just always show up, because he liked to burn slash. And here’s the head of the national forests. He’d grab a bucket of planer shavings, and we’d bring barrels of planer shavings soaked in diesel oil, and we’d fill a bucket full of those and have a little scoop.... We’d scoop them with, with a tin can on the end of a stick, and we’d light that and sprinkle a little here and there, and start our fires. Bob would be out there and he’d grab one of those, and he’d work for, all night long, usually lighting at night time.

Royal Jackson: And he was a classmate of yours, is that right?

Marvin Rowley: No, he was earlier. He was late ‘30s, I think. I’m not sure just when he got out. Probably ‘36, ‘37— somewhere like that.

Royal Jackson: When did he die?

Marvin Rowley: I’m not sure. I think probably sometime along about ‘57 or ‘58.

Royal Jackson: Is that when they set up the award?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, they set that up right after that as a memorial to Bob.

Royal Jackson: Getting back to 1946 when you entered the School of Forestry, who were some of the professors that were here when you came, or at least ones that stand out as exceptional?

Marvin Rowley: Well, Harry Patterson was head of the Forest Engineering Department, and Ralph DeMoisy was a Forest Engineering professor, and Bill Davies was the other one. That was the department.

Royal Jackson: Is that Forest Products?

Marvin Rowley: No, that was Forest Engineering. In Forest Products we had Jack Grantham, Head of the Department.

Royal Jackson: And McCulloch was head of Forest Management?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, McCulloch was head of Forest Management. Dan Robinson was here then. He was probably the only one that was here then.

Royal Jackson: What about Bob Wilson?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, no. He’s a johnny-come-lately. He’s only been here 25 years or so. Let’s see, who else.... I gave you Ralph DeMoisy....

Royal Jackson: Was T. J. Starker here still?

Marvin Rowley: Jim Snodgrass was Forest Products professor. Young fellow at that time.

Royal Jackson: T. J. Starker had already left by then?

Marvin Rowley: He’d already left, yes. I’m trying to think. Bob Kenniston was here then. Casey Randall came before I left school, and Bob Kenniston and Casey Randall are both dead. They died on the job, so to speak. Let’s see....

Royal Jackson: Which of these people stand out in your mind as affecting your life?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, all of them did some. Bill Davies.... Like I say, most of my Forest Engineering courses after freshman year came from Bill. And then junior and senior year were Harry Patterson. Of course, Harry came here in 1922, I think, some time like that. He’s a civil engineer that had a railroad background and, even at that time, when I was a senior in Forest Engineering, we learned how to build trestles, locate railroads, put in frog angles, spurs, curves, spirals.

Royal Jackson: Why did you go into Forest Engineering rather than Forest Management?

Marvin Rowley: Like I say, that was back when I entered. I was looking at Forest Management, but it sounded like that was like the Army and most of them worked for the government, and the government was Army, so I went to Forest Engineering. Dean McCulloch followed through on what Dunn had started. They had the same philosophy, and maybe, if anything, McCulloch was stronger in realigning. I think one thing that, if McCulloch saw something that didn’t fit, he cut it. I mean, there was no bones about it, and if it hurt somebody it hurt, and I think he did it because he wanted a strong department. The personality didn’t matter.

Royal Jackson: McCulloch had what he called his student personnel program, that he developed. Now I guess Bill Wheeler heads that up as head advisor. Was that program active when you were a student here? Did they counsel you a lot, try to get you jobs and work with you individually?

Marvin Rowley: Well, we had counselors, all right. Our advisors. With others they may have, but I don’t remember them influencing me; I don’t remember even relying on it. I think again, that period from 1946 to 1950, with the veterans that were here, we were mature enough to make our own decisions—even if they were wrong decisions. We didn’t go ask someone. I think something in point, that points out the philosophy of the returning group, was that before that time all the freshmen wore those little beanies.

Royal Jackson: A freshman beanie?

Marvin Rowley: A freshman beanie. And they were hazed by the sophomores in this initiation process that was traditional. Well, we came on the scene, and.... There were a few in the fraternities that tried to haze the freshmen and tell them to step out of the way, and stuff, and it ended just about the first day.

Royal Jackson: Veterans just wouldn’t take that?

Marvin Rowley: Veterans said, “You and who else is going to make me do that?” They’d say, “Oh, oh. I didn’t mean anything then.”

Royal Jackson: How do you think the professors adapted to this new freshman population?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, I think they liked it. I think this group of veterans again had a tremendous influence on the University life as a whole. The professors up to that time had been used to taking the high school students and kind of developing them, and here they had a mature group that they worked with that were interested in learning, and they stopped coddling a bunch of them. Like I say, when I started at the University you could start at Math 10, which was a grade-school-level math, and you got college credit for it. Well, now, if you can’t start in calculus.... This has been kind of an evolution over the years, but they cut out that type of thing, of just trying to get them ready to go. And I think that veteran population had something to do with it.

Royal Jackson: I’ve heard of a tradition of wearing a red tie on a certain day to identify yourself as a forester. Can you tell me anything about that?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. When I came that red tie day was a must. I mean, everybody wore a red tie.

Royal Jackson: What day of the week was that?

Marvin Rowley: That was Wednesday. Every Wednesday every forester wore a red tie. Dean Peavy started that way back in antiquity somewhere.

Royal Jackson: What was the idea then?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, just to set them apart—an esprit de corps type of thing, I suppose. Just to give something to identify them with.

Royal Jackson: Why a red tie?

Marvin Rowley: I don’t know whether that’s all that Dean Peavy had, or if he liked red, or if there was somebody else who’d suggested it. They used to make fun of the red forester. Say, “Hey, your tongue’s hanging out,” things like that. But they all wore a red tie anyway.

Royal Jackson: There was a real sense of identification in the School of Forestry then and on the campus?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. The Forestry Club, for instance, in those days consisted of 100 percent of the student body and all the faculty. You went to a Forestry Club meeting, and, well, they were all there.

Royal Jackson: How many people would that have been altogether when you were a student?

Marvin Rowley: Three, four hundred people.

Royal Jackson: Everybody participated?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. I mean, not everybody.... Sometimes you couldn’t be there, but the bulk of the people were there at the meeting. And the meeting was pretty professionally run. It consisted of a short business meeting, a singing time, and a speaker, some current issue, and refreshments. They put out the High Lead, and the Annual Cruise, and had different projects they worked on.

Royal Jackson: What were some of the activities of the Forestry Club when you were a student?

Marvin Rowley: I guess the biggest one was the building of the Forestry Club Cabin. Of course, I think back to that time and this, when I came here and what the forest was like. It had the old cabin— Forestry Club Cabin was a traditional cabin, logs horizontal, big fireplace on either end of a rectangular building.

Royal Jackson: Now, you’re describing the cabin that burned down?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. A dirt floor. It was built by students back in the early days.

Royal Jackson: What year, do you remember?

Marvin Rowley: I think 1925. I met the fellow that was foreman of that project in the 1950s. They had a school sawmill that was put in about 1946 or 1947, way up on Oak Creek, that the Forest Products people worked in some. They had an old D-6 cat that the Forest Engineering group logged with once in a while for the sawmill. But the road system was basically what was left from the old logging, or the CCCs had built. That was another part of the forest, during the 1930s, during the Depression, the CCC had built a camp at Peavy Arboretum. I’ve got a map up in the office that shows 40 buildings in the Arboretum area. There was a battalion of men stationed there who worked in 10 or 12 locations all around this general area, all the way out to Siletz and Valsetz area, and down toward Newport. They constructed the lookouts, and built trails and fisheries, and, of course, during that time they built the main road across the ridge, from Peavy Arboretum over across to Lewisburg Saddle and on over to Oak Creek. That was the main road through the forest up to that time.

Royal Jackson: Is that Patterson Road?

Marvin Rowley: That’s Nettleton Road—Nettleton Road, Patterson Road, Schreiner Road—there are three different names on it.

Royal Jackson: Let’s go back to the Forestry Cabin. When did the first one burn down?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, it burned down in February of 1949.

Royal Jackson: And then what happened?

Marvin Rowley: We got a committee together to investigate rebuilding the cabin.

Royal Jackson: Who did this?

Marvin Rowley: The Forestry Club. And I was on that committee. At that time, I was taking Architecture classes as electives, and that term I think I was in a class—no, I probably finished that class— but I’d had architectural courses, and I was building a house, and it just evolved that we drew up a series of plans. The committee worked on ideas and presented them to the Forestry Club. And, in conjunction with the Forestry Club and the Physical Plant here on the campus, working together, we picked up a plan and we got $6,050 from an insurance fund to go into rebuilding. That was in the spring of 1949. When we came back that fall, fall of 1949, I was appointed the construction foreman, and we started building it.

Royal Jackson: You were a student at that time?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I was a senior that year.

Royal Jackson: Who appointed you?

Marvin Rowley: The Forestry Club and the dean, and the faculty advisor, Jack Grantham, the Forest Products professor, was the one I reported to.

Royal Jackson: Were you paid to do this, or did you get academic credit?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I got paid, a $1 an hour, for working on that. Up to that fall, I just did it free, gratis, like everyone did. But then, when we came back, well, some of the work was donated, some of it was student labor.

Royal Jackson: How long a period did it take to actually construct the cabin?

Marvin Rowley: We had the thing up in almost the present form—the inside wasn’t finished off, it was fairly rough, but the windows were in, the doors were in, and the fireplace and all the walls up, and the roof was on, by May 1950.

Royal Jackson: And you designed it?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I designed it. I designed it with a committee, but we drew up different sketches.

Royal Jackson: What happened? Did vandals burn down the first cabin?

Marvin Rowley: No. They had a fraternity party there the night before. And the next morning it was burned down. They figured there was probably a crack in one of the fireplaces and a spark got up in one of the logs, and they didn’t know. Of course, that’s been the thing that’s shaped our policy since then. The policy’s been that we don’t let fraternities, sororities, use the cabin. It’s open for forestry, the forestry students and related type of activities. And this has been in the background in deciding no more outside groups use it.

Royal Jackson: Was it built on the same site as the first one?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, it’s built right on the same site, only it faces the opposite direction. The other one, the ridge ran east and west, and this one the ridge runs north and south. If you look closely on the floor as you go in, oh, probably 10 feet inside the main room, there’s a crack in the concrete, a slight crack runs east and west. That was the old foundation. The other old building foundation is underneath that crack. Had a slight settling and it cracked over that.

Royal Jackson: You poured the new foundation right over the other one?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, we poured the new floor, we put a floor in this one, but we left the old foundation. We didn’t beat it all out. We just broke it down and in that place we were just about four inches above it, so we just left it there.

Royal Jackson: Why was that spot chosen?

Marvin Rowley: Well, that’s a good spot. I don’t know why the first group chose it, but it’s pretty close to water. And it’s on that little flat place up there in the trees, and of course they logged—the logs were close. The first one was built off the logs right off the hillside there. If you ever see a picture of the first cabin, it’s sitting on the edge of a clearcut. Back up where the restrooms, toilets are now—that was all logged, completely denuded.

Royal Jackson: While we’re talking about cabins, let’s talk a little bit about Peavy’s Cabin. Did you ever go there when it was still standing?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. Spent several nights there. I don’t know just exactly when they built it, but it was built by the alumni, and for the Dean. It was, like I say, a small cabin, probably 16 by 24 feet— something like that. It had a kitchen area, and a bigger area with a porch on the east side over-

Marvin Rowley: looking the valley. Evidently it was built as a retreat for the Dean. And I have an idea, I think the thing it was used for more than anything else was probably a kind of seminar room away from the campus, where you go out and spend the day discussing things without interruptions.

Royal Jackson: Did you get out there for that purpose occasionally?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I was out there a couple of times for that. And I was out there when I was logging; went out there and stayed overnight a couple–three times. I took a bunch of Sunday school kids up there one time, stayed all night, had our breakfast, and had an evangelist from the East. Name was Al Paya. He was out here for a couple of weeks, and I took him up there with his kids. He thought that was fantastic. He always wanted to be up on a mountain and watch the sun come up.

Royal Jackson: What other groups or individuals have used that cabin, when it was still standing?

Marvin Rowley: Alumni groups, I think. I think probably 95 percent of the use was faculty.

Royal Jackson: Now, did the Alumni build it personally, or was it contracted out?

Marvin Rowley: I have no idea. I think they probably built it personally. I’m not sure.

Royal Jackson: And that was because they admired Peavy so much that they wanted to do this for him?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. As I gather. And I’m not sure whether they just.... I have an idea there’s probably a variety. Some of them worked on it, and some of them donated money. I think it was both ways.

Royal Jackson: Did Peavy use it quite a bit?

Marvin Rowley: Well, if he used it, like I say, it was before my time. I never met Peavy up there. Of course, again, he died I think before I got out of school. So, after 1950, he wasn’t there to use it, but they sprinkled his ashes out on the slope outside the cabin.

Royal Jackson: Was that his request?

Marvin Rowley: I think so. I have in my office yet a bronze plaque that was on the fireplace that was dedicated to Dean Peavy. Vandals had stolen that plaque, started down the hill with it, and some way or another, somebody either scared them, or they got tired of carrying it…. They threw it away. And somebody found it, and turned it in to my office. We’re thinking of putting it back. I’m going to try to put it back in the Forestry Club Cabin.

Royal Jackson: When did Peavy’s Cabin burn down?

Marvin Rowley: It didn’t burn down. They tore it down in 1961.

Royal Jackson: Why did they do that?

Marvin Rowley: It had dry rot, and it was getting in poor shape. And they didn’t feel like they wanted to keep it up.

Royal Jackson: By “they” now, are we talking about McCulloch?

Marvin Rowley: This would be McCulloch, yes. And Bill Davies. The other thing that kind of enters into this is the Columbus Day Storm of 1962. Blew a big fir tree right across the foundation. If the cabin had been there, it’d have been mashed flat by that big tree. So, either way, it’d have been down.

Royal Jackson: Were there a lot of problems with vandals and other illegal uses of the cabin?

Marvin Rowley: Well, there were getting to be. When they tore it down, there were getting to be break-ins rather consistently. That was before the TV facilities were up there. And there wasn’t anybody around to watch it.

Royal Jackson: Before what facilities?

Marvin Rowley: The KOAC TV tower.

Royal Jackson: On Vineyard Mountain?

Marvin Rowley: On Vineyard Mountain, see, and that cabin was right alongside of that.

Royal Jackson: What year were those facilities put in by the TV company?

Marvin Rowley: I think they were put in [during] the late 1950s. . . . Probably about the time they tore [the cabin] down or just before.

Royal Jackson: Why don’t we talk a little bit about those early days we skipped over about the CCC, Camp Adair, and that period? Pre-World War II. You mentioned the CCC Camp. Besides building roads, constructing Cronemiller Lake, and activities like that, what other kinds of things did they do?

Marvin Rowley: They planted. Some of the forests are planted by the CCCs. And I say, I think the Oak Creek guard station was constructed by the CCCs. Where the Oak Creek fisheries lab is now, they had telephone lines. There used to be a couple ... in fact, the remnants are still there. Out on the Jackson place, there are a couple of open-sided shelters. The CCCs built those, and not very many people knew they were there after they built them even. I think they strung a telephone line down through the Jackson place, and I’m not sure just what other types of work they did do. During that same period of time, the students, the University students, did a lot of work on the forest under government support programs that were similar to work-study now. They had, what’d they call it...? The NRA Act.

Royal Jackson: The National Industrial Recovery Act, the NRA?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. I think they had a work deal for the students, and they built most of the fences around the forest. And I think part of the fences were done by the CCCs and part of them were done by this student group. The students did a lot of wood cutting at that time, and thinning. I think at that time the University was heated by wood.

Royal Jackson: In the ‘30s?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, they had cord wood.

Royal Jackson: So, a lot of that wood for the heating came from McDonald Forest?

Marvin Rowley: I wouldn’t be surprised. I’m not sure where it went, but I know they cut it. And I know where they cut it because I’ve run into places, in some cases, where there was wood still piled there that they’d cut, but didn’t get hauled out for some reason or another.

Royal Jackson: How were the CCC boys considered by the Corvallis community? Have you ever heard anything about that? Were they well received?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, I don’t know. I think so. Like I say, all I know is about people that’ve been in the CCCs. I think this group, a lot of these were easterners, came out here, like I say, the CCC was run as a part of the Army. The Army, all their officers were Army officers, and it was built up, the structure was Army—battalions, companies, platoons.

Royal Jackson: Pretty tight discipline, then?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, tight discipline. Court martials. Somebody that was out of order was called onto the carpet for it, put on extra duty. They were also learning a trade type of thing, a lot of them. They were doing reclamation projects, and so it wasn’t typical Army as far as the work they did, but as far as the organization, I think they had the calisthenics, the close-order drill, and this type

Marvin Rowley: of thing that you’d find in the Army. But that’s where it ended.

Royal Jackson: Were they allowed to come to town on leave on weekends or at night, or anything?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, I think so. I don’t know how much or anything. Not nearly as much as now. The restricting thing then was money. I have an idea these kids got Army pay, which was $20.00 a month. And in those days $20.00 was a fair amount, but it still didn’t leave you a lot. A lot of it went to their parents at home, and they got $4.00 or $5.00 a month. I don’t think you’d find that they were hitting the town and carousing around a lot.

Royal Jackson: Was the nursery established by then? The one Vern McDaniel came to direct?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I think that nursery was established about the same time as they started buying the forest. In about 1926, the nursery was established. I’m not sure of that exact date, but have you interviewed Vern? I think he took over when that was a pretty rough piece of ground, and cleared it up. In fact, the old stump-puller’s out there. I just dug it out of the brush, and am looking to see if we could put it together in a demonstrable condition….

Royal Jackson: Recently you did this?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, just over Christmas vacation.

Royal Jackson: And this was a stump-puller used....

Marvin Rowley: For clearing the Arboretum off. It was a horse-powered stump-puller.

Royal Jackson: Is it in good enough condition to put back together?

Marvin Rowley: Well, the wood’s all gone, all you’d have to do is put it back together that way. Probably I ought to get ahold of Vern and find out just what kind of a platform they had it mounted on. I think it’s mounted on a little sled, and they moved it with, had a tongue about six or eight inches in diameter, about 20–25 feet long, and the horses were tied to the end of that, and walked in a circle. It was a pretty powerful little machine; it’s just strictly a mechanical advantage type of thing.

Royal Jackson: Something we skipped over a little bit was the acquisition of the Arboretum—the Arboretum Committee that was set up, that T. J. Starker was instrumental in acquisition. What do you know about that?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I know just what I’ve read on the thing. They had a committee. I think the committee consisted of students and faculty and alumni. As I would put it together from reading about it, they worked together to get the Arboretum and to establish a school forest. I think the State Forestry Department worked with them on this; I think that’s why we had the nursery there. They were probably all some of the same personnel that were involved in it. Today, even, it’s different. We have the Arboretum area, part of that, under a 100-year lease or a 20-year lease, or something like this.

Royal Jackson: From whom?

Marvin Rowley: From the State Forestry Department. They bought that. And some of those buildings out there were State Forestry Department built. And we have a lease on them for $1 a year, or something like that.

Royal Jackson: Are some of those buildings original? Are they like they were originally, or have they all been altered?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, most of those up in the Arboretum area are like they were originally. They haven’t been altered.

Royal Jackson: Built by the CCC boys?

Marvin Rowley: I have an idea they were built by the 3-C boys. Some of them may even have been built earlier

Marvin Rowley: than the 3-Cs, but I’m not sure. I don’t have any records on just the exact date they were built. I am pretty sure that Vern McDaniel’s house, the one that Ivan Cutsforth lives in, was built by the 3-Cs. It has typical shutters, woodcarving on it, the type of work that they did. Whether all the other houses were done, it looked like that house down there alongside our office may have been an earlier one, and the other constructed later.

Royal Jackson: Did you ever know anyone that had met Mrs. Mary McDonald?

Marvin Rowley: No, no, I didn’t.

Royal Jackson: She didn’t really come up here that much?

Marvin Rowley: No. I don’t know. I never met her, and don’t know anyone I’ve met that knew her. Dean Peavy, and I suppose McCulloch, and T. J. Starker all would have known her, but I don’t have any information about her.

Royal Jackson: Did you ever hear any comments that would give us an insight into her personality or what she was like?

Marvin Rowley: No. Although the only thing, what I was reading in the papers, where it said that her husband had made a pretty good sum of money and she wanted to further forestry. I don’t know any more about it than that. I don’t think Oregon State University’s the only recipient of her money. I think the University of California has the school forest from the same source, but I’m not sure.

Royal Jackson: I wonder if they had any children?

Marvin Rowley: I don’t know. Probably not, or probably, if they did, at least they had enough that she could give them money without shorting anybody.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, let’s talk for a minute about the earlier period before it was the school forest. What kind of human occupation was there in the area—such as homesteading, grazing? What kind of things happened there?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think all types that we’d see are common to the Valley here. There are some portions of donation land claims within the school area, and these are areas that were homesteaded or settled before the Homestead Act, which, the Homestead Act was 1848, was it, or 1849?

Royal Jackson: Was later than that, wasn’t it? Was 1862, wasn’t it? The Donation Act was around 1850, as I recall.

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think by 1852 they were taking up the area. It was surveyed and the Homestead Act required them to take up surveyed areas, but I don’t remember any Donation Land Claims that go beyond 1850 at all. I think most of them ended about 1848, and of course the Donation Land Claim gives the settlers I think 640 acres, but he could lay it out any way he wanted to. So that you see odd-shaped pieces or rectangular pieces or triangular pieces that fit the landscape.

Royal Jackson: Included in the Valley?

Marvin Rowley: Included in the Valley, and maybe the foothills around it. I find these up on Soap Creek Valley, in the Soap Creek Valley. And right around Peavy Arboretum, over in the early era. On Berry Creek, had one that fit up a valley there, odd shape.

Royal Jackson: What do you know about any of those early homesteaders? What names stand out to you?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, I’d have to go read the thing. I could think of some.

Royal Jackson: What about Greenberry Smith?

Marvin Rowley: Well, that doesn’t. I’ve looked at the map, and I know a lot of those names, but I’d have to

Marvin Rowley: read the map to recall them. Some of them, you look at them and you recognize the names as early settlers that are prominent in the history of the area. The early homesteaders’ basic idea was to clear the land, use it for agriculture. It wasn’t until later they found it was unfeasible to use foothills for agriculture, although most of the foothill use was for grazing. Of course, this brings out the point that McDonald Forest was basically an open oak forest at the time the settlers came in here, not a Douglas-fir forest.

Royal Jackson: Even in the 1800s? It would have been an open oak forest then?

Marvin Rowley: In 1850, it would have been an open oak forest.

Royal Jackson: The whole area?

Marvin Rowley: Most of the area. I’d say probably 80 percent of it, not 100 percent. The bulk of our timber is 140 years old. The Indians evidently practiced an annual burning that kept it open, and the only Douglas-fir was on north slopes, in shady areas that didn’t dry out enough to burn. There’s only one stand in the whole area that puzzles me. It’s on an east slope, and for some reason it didn’t burn, but on either side of it.... And then scattered along through these open oak forests was old hooter-type of a Douglas-fir.

Royal Jackson: “Hooter-type” ?

Marvin Rowley: Yes.

Royal Jackson: What is that?

Marvin Rowley: That’s a grouse ladder. Now a hooter or a grouse ladder to a forester is a real limby tree. It’s grown in the open, hasn’t pruned itself off. We call it a “hooter,” because the hoot owls can roost in it. Or they call it a “grouse ladder,” because you can start at the bottom and bounce up all the limbs. Two logger terms.

Royal Jackson: Where is that strip of old growth of the Douglas-fir?

Marvin Rowley: On the east slope that I was telling you about? Well, it’s just above the Jackson place, this one strip, as I say. Then, there are several places, north slopes in canyons that had old growth. Of course, the burning stopped when the settlers moved in, and the burnings in this area reduced…, well, the Douglas-fir popped up. And the Douglas-fir is the climax, or the dominant species for the area. I’ve noticed, over the years, that, even if it’s brushy, eventually Douglas-fir is going to dominate. There’s no way you can hold it out, because it keeps piling up there. I mean, it’ll get a leader out. The first time it gets a leader out above the rest of the canopy, if there’s anything else, it’s got it made.

Royal Jackson: Are you going to leave that old-growth timber?

Marvin Rowley: Well, the management, we’ll get into the management philosophy of the University here. I suppose it comes into play. And the forest as it was originally purchased, as Mary McDonald designated it, was a forest for instruction and research. The old-growth portions that we have on the forest are important for instruction and research, and, as such, they will be used for that. And, like I say, there’s a possibility of some of them being used up for that. In other words, if an old growth becomes necessary for some type of research, then we would cut it, cut an area for research. But we don’t. My present policy, and this is John Beuter and the Dean [Carl Stoltenberg], and the general philosophy I feel behind me of the University structure, is to not go out of my way to destroy old growth. But I would keep that for the uniqueness of it in the University system, while, from a strictly forestry standpoint, and just growing wood fiber, some

Marvin Rowley: of it should be gone. From an education purpose, it can’t be duplicated, and so it’s going to stay—persist for the next 100 years, or 200, or 300.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, how did you know that the Indians burned this area? Have you read that, or can you see evidence, or are there any artifacts that tell you that, or what?

Marvin Rowley: Well, there are. I mean, you get to reading the landscape in there. First, I get it from history and reading what the people tell. I’ve talked with some old-timers in my life that have been around and remembered some of the late parts of this.

Royal Jackson: And they remember the Indians?

Marvin Rowley: First, I’ve read stories, and then I’ve known in my lifetime people that were born in the 1870s that lived in this area. They got it from their parents. In other words, it was sent down.

Royal Jackson: Why did the Indians want to burn?

Marvin Rowley: Well, like I say, as I understand it, the main reason they burned was for game hunts. It may have been to improve the grazing so that it attracted game to an area where they could hunt it more easily. But I think one of the things they did was use it for wildlife, for driving game. And you consider the crude weapons they had. They could drive it into a confined area where a few men could have a maximum chance of making a kill. And this was basically what they used it for.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, as you look at the area that’s encompassed in the school forests, can you trace epochs of land use, like you’re talking about the Indians that first were here?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I think we can trace these. First of all, like you say, the Indians quit, or left the scene. The white settlers that came into the Valley settled it. A lot of grazing took place, and, as the time progressed, this land on the foothills became less of a place to graze, and more timber had been cut. And the timber that had come in was harvested; it was close to the community.

Royal Jackson: When would that have been? Would that have paralleled the growth of Corvallis?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, I think so. Like I say, we don’t have any record of the real early mills, of where they were before 1900, but after 1900, especially the rebuilding time after the First World War, there were numerous mills scattered throughout the area. At Oak Creek there was.... I know of three mill sites on Oak Creek itself that are on the forest. There were probably five or six mill sites on Soap Creek, just off the forest. Then there was a mill site just west of the, what is now Adair Village. It was on the forest. That was a little later one, but it used to mill material close to where it grew. The little sawmill—that wasn’t portable. But they tore it apart, moved it, moved the steel and cut the wood back where it’s got the basic structure, brought a log down and started cutting lumber and built a frame around it with the machinery. And either steam mills or an early type of gasoline engines were used for power.

Royal Jackson: Now, how’d they transport that out of there? By horse?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, a lot by horse. Or the early truck. And, in fact, the one on Oak Creek, there was a flume from it down to Marys River.

Royal Jackson: Did you ever see that flume?

Marvin Rowley: I’ve seen parts of it.

Royal Jackson: When was it built, do you have any idea?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I don’t have any idea. I believe it was operating around 1919–1920, but as to how much earlier than that and how long it was there, I wouldn’t have a whole lot of information.

[Withheld from this edition pending review. The page keeps its printed number and its permanent link, so a citation to it still lands here.]

Royal Jackson: How long ago was that?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, about three years ago.

Royal Jackson: Is that the only incident of someone finding an artifact?

Marvin Rowley: The only one that I know of. There’s…. Let’s see now.... Another thing that we did, we felled a tree. That would be just north of the Lewisburg Saddle. When that tree fell in the undercut, there was an ax mark there opened up that we figured was made in 1826.

Royal Jackson: By counting the rings?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, by counting the rings back to where this ax blaze had been put on this tree. It was put on in 1826, which says that either an Indian or a trapper was in the area. This is 15 years before the very earliest settlers in the Valley. But the Hudson Bay trappers trapped the whole Valley by then, too. From 1800 on, I think. Or at least had had contact with the Indians where they could have had axes and done their own chopping.

Royal Jackson: That’s all you know about from before 1850?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, that’s the only thing that I’ve ever known out there.

Royal Jackson: What about after that time? Have you found plows or some other things that the settlers left?

Marvin Rowley: No, I haven’t. I found a piece of these sawmills, but they’re 1920 mostly. And, other than that, it’s been like these old buildings that have been abandoned out there were probably built around the 1900s or so. I think probably if a guy had the time to spend around these old home sites, he might come up with some rare coins, or.... We found the bottles occasionally, but I think they’re all 1920s or later, too. I think they’re somewhere around the time or just before the military took over.

Royal Jackson: Marvin, what do you know about Tampico?

Marvin Rowley: Tampico was a community out just north of McDonald Forest on Lower Soap Creek where the Old Territorial Road…, that road that comes across Tampico Road used to be a part of the Old Territorial Road. We’ve got it on our map, yet it shows the Portland-Umpqua Road, and that’s still a state highway right-of-way. The county maintains it, but it is a state highway right-of-way.

Royal Jackson: How was that highway used? Was that the early transportation corridor?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, that was the early transportation corridor north and south in the Valley. It followed the foothills rather than through the middle of the Valley, because they didn’t have the ballast to put on it, and the foothills—was easier to stay out of the mud on the foothills. It took a little longer distance, but it took the easier route as far as maintaining the thing.

Royal Jackson: Have you ever heard anything about Jedediah Smith passing through this area on that road?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, he probably did. I don’t know. Jesse Applegate is the one that staked it out more than anyone. Getting back to Tampico, there was a village built up there. And this is hearsay, too, except the old school house was there when I heard earlier.

Royal Jackson: Oh, it was? In 1946?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, the school house building was there until the late ‘50s. But, anyway, they say that at Tampico there was a church and a general store and a saloon or two and a race track and quite a community. I don’t know when it happened, but they say that it was declining as Marysville

Marvin Rowley: was taking over. There was a stagecoach stop. I think as things started to improve they started to bypass it, or someone was supposed to have gotten mad at the town of Tampico and they bought it lock, stock, and barrel.

Royal Jackson: I thought it was Greenberry Smith who did that.

Marvin Rowley: I don’t know who did it, but whoever it was tore it down—closed it up and tore it down. Why he did it I have no idea. The race track was supposed to be down there where the—if you go out there, there’s an area [that] was planted with Christmas trees of Scotch pine.... And things got out of hand, and that’s the race track area. We bought a piece of property just across the road from the Adair Air Force Base. I believe that was the Allen property? And the old man they bought that property from had lived there all his life. And he told Harry Nettleton he’d sit on his front porch and watch the Indians go by after the 1878 uprising in southern Oregon. They moved those Indians, the Modoc Indians, to Siletz and Grand Ronde Reservations. And he watched those Indians, the soldiers moving Indians by, in front of his house.

Royal Jackson: Would this have been on the Portland-Umpqua Road?

Marvin Rowley: Yes.

Royal Jackson: Who was this that told Harry Nettleton?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, Mr. Allen. I think his name was Mr. Allen [Ed Blake]. If you go out there to that old home site [Blake Homestead], that was the oldest building we had, and they tore that down. They used to rent that, and it got to be so hard to keep up.

Royal Jackson: The Allen Homestead?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. If it had been anything that would have been a historical building in Benton County, that probably was the oldest.

Royal Jackson: Could you locate that?

Marvin Rowley: Oh, yes. I know where the location is. I think the dugout, the depression where the root cellar underneath it was, is still there. Anyway, getting back to early history, Allen told about a couple of girls riding out from Corvallis on a Sunday afternoon, and they had black locust switches. When they left, they left the switches. They stuck them in the ground, and two big black locust trees grew out from those switches. And that was corroborated. You can find out from one of those women that’s doing the historical work of Benton County Historical Society.

Royal Jackson: Harriet Moore?

Marvin Rowley: Yes. She corroborated that one of those girls was an Avery, I believe, and the other one was someone else that was here in the early days.

Royal Jackson: Does that seem probable to you that switches could be stuck in the ground and grow to trees?

Marvin Rowley: Well, black locust, yes.

Royal Jackson: Black locust would?

Marvin Rowley: Yes, it does readily. That’s one of the ways of propagating it. Cut a limb off, stick it in the ground the right time of the year, and it grows.

Royal Jackson: What about the legend of the gold-filled miner’s boot on Calloway Creek? What do you know about that?

Marvin Rowley: Well, just what everyone else has heard. He was on his way north after striking it rich in northern California or southern Oregon somewhere, and was afraid of being murdered for

Marvin Rowley: his money, so he wouldn’t stay in around a city. He’d go out and camp out back away from the road, and bury his poke of gold under a tree somewhere for the night. He was murdered on Calloway Creek, and they figured that the guy who did it didn’t get the gold. So there’s an old map circulating around. That map gives an indication of where that gold would be.

Royal Jackson: Who has that, do you know?

Marvin Rowley: No, I don’t. Probably several people. I ran into an old man here, I think it was just last year, who was up in the Arboretum. He asked me if I knew where the old road went through there, and I told him, “No.” I said, “I think maybe it went down close to where the highway is now,” and he said, “Well, I think not. Up in here maybe?” “I don’t know.” He was noncommittal, and I said, “Are you looking for the pot of gold?” And he started smiling, and said, “Yes, I got a map.” I didn’t ask to look at it. I should have. Some of those guys are kind of..., they might not have showed it to me, either.

Royal Jackson: So, that’s all you know about that? You don’t know whether there’s any truth to the legend or not?

Marvin Rowley: Well, I think it’s true, but I imagine they don’t know. And the legend doesn’t say. They don’t know if anybody ever found his gold or not, because I can imagine that over the intervening years there were probably a lot of people out digging for it, and if they found it they weren’t going to tell anybody. They probably slipped off, and so they could have been gone a long time ago. And they’re looking for something that is nonexistent.

Royal Jackson: What about the first telegraph line that’s supposed to have passed by Calloway Creek? Do you know anything about that?

Marvin Rowley: No, I don’t.

Royal Jackson: I read that the Oregon’s first telegraph line was supposed to have passed somewhere near Calloway Creek in McDonald Forest.

Marvin Rowley: Well, I have an idea that it came up the Old Territorial Road, which would have been along in through Tampico and right by this Allen....

Royal Jackson: What makes you think that?

Marvin Rowley: Well, the Territorial Road was public property. And, for ease of maintenance, if they’d kept it along a main artery. That’s why they did that in earlier days rather than going across the property. If it broke down, out across country, they couldn’t get equipment to it to fix it. But they could ride the road and look at it.